In this episode of the Hiring to Firing Podcast, Tracey Diamond, Evan Gibbs, and Victoria Pasquale draw insights from the TV series NCIS to discuss effective workplace harassment training.
In this episode of the Hiring to Firing Podcast, Partners Tracey Diamond and Evan Gibbs draw insights from the TV series NCIS to discuss effective workplace harassment training. Our hosts are joined by Victoria Pasquale, chief human resources officer at Pritchard Industries, who shares her expertise on structuring effective trainings for her employees. Listen as the group explores how to capture their audience's attention and drive home important messages in an engaging way.
Hiring to Firing Podcast — Effective Harassment Trainings: Best Approaches With Insights from NCIS
Hosts: Tracey Diamond and Evan Gibbs
Guests: Victoria Pasquale
Tracey Diamond:
Evan, this is our harassment training episode. Have any fun harassment training stories?
Evan Gibbs:
You know, I do. I gave a training one time to a client. This was several years ago. This is probably eight years ago now. And I was still sort of a junior level attorney, junior level associate. And I've been sent in to give some training, which is usually a very non-controversial thing.
I've been called in by the partner to give some training to a client, to some folks at a client site. When I got there, we were going through the training, and somebody piped up during the training and they reported harassment to me in front of a group of fellow employees.
Tracey Diamond:
Did they stand up, like physically stand up and say, I have a story, I’ve been harassed….
Evan Gibbs:
Yeah, I don't remember that they stood up. But I was, you know, going through examples of, okay, this is some questionable conduct, you know, just giving some examples, talking through the stuff, illustrating the concepts and this person was like, Oh yeah, well, I've seen so and so do blah, blah, blah. And it was just like —
Tracey Diamond:
Was so and so there?
Evan Gibbs:
Well, yeah, so and so was there. And I was just like a deer in the headlights. I was like, “Oh my God, what do I do here?” You know, I'm not sure how to respond to this situation. So I think I said something like “Okay, well, let's talk about that offline after the class,” but you know, I was just sort of new lawyer. I had no idea how to deal with this situation, so I just sort of punted and was like, “Oh, we'll deal with it later,” which I think is what I would have done even, being more experienced, but yeah, that definitely really, really threw me for a loop. I did not expect somebody to report something during the actual training.
Tracey Diamond:
Well, it looks like they actually got the message.
Evan Gibbs:
It sounds like it. Yeah.
Tracey Diamond:
Yeah, I think I would have said let's take that one offline. Well, I have a story along those lines where I was giving harassment training once, and we got to the part of the training where we talked about what is offensive or not offensive could depend potentially on context, and I use as an example. For example, it's okay to say to someone, “You look nice today,” but it's not okay to say to someone, “You look hot in that tight shirt,” at which point one of the young men in the audience yelled out, “You look nice in that hot shirt!” Which, you know, was flattering, but not appropriate.
Tracey Diamond:
Welcome to Hiring to Firing, the podcast. I'm Tracey Diamond, Labor and Employment Attorney at Troutman Pepper, and I'm here with my cohost, Evan Gibbs. Together, we tackle all employment and HR issues from hiring to firing.
Today, our guest is Victoria Pasquale, Chief Human Resources Officer at Pritchard Industries. Thanks so much for joining us, Victoria.
Victoria Pasquale:
Thank you for having me, Tracey, and Evan.
Tracey Diamond:
So, why don't we start by having you tell us a little bit about Pritchard Industries and your role with the company?
Victoria Pasquale:
Sure. So, Pritchard, it's a janitorial facilities company. We're a nationwide, and we clean office buildings, schools, hospitals, kind of all of the above. I am the Chief Human Resource Officer. I've been with the company for about five years and have all things HR, talent, to risk, all safety, all under my umbrella.
Tracey Diamond:
I know you're a pretty large company. About how many employees do you have?
Victoria Pasquale:
Right now, we're about 16,500, heavily dominated on the East Coast, but we are nationwide.
Tracey Diamond:
Wow.
Evan Gibbs:
Very cool. So, I bet you've dealt with this a lot, Victoria, in your work. But as part of our practice, we've been asked many times over the years, to give harassment training to company management, as well as to your more general rank-and-file employees. Sometimes companies, they'll use like these web-based programs where they do the training themselves in-house, with either some in the HR department, or maybe some in the safety department, I've seen before. I'm curious, how does Pritchard handle their harassment training?
Victoria Pasquale:
So, I'll tell you, we do all of the above just based on the amount of employees specifically that you have to train in certain individual states where you have to get to the rank-and-file employee base. Mostly, heavily dominated California and the Northeast, which has those state requirements. So, we do a lot of them via web-based, but also every couple of years, we’ll mandate in-person training and feel that that actually gets through to the employees a lot better, where they can ask questions, we can talk examples, we can talk different scenarios.
But really, that they feel like they have somebody that they can go to in person. Web-based is fine from a compliance perspective, but really in-person is, I wish I could do it every single year for all 16,000. But unfortunately, just not being able to have the plethora of trainers that can execute a sexual harassment training. The other component is not everybody who can train on how to clean a bathroom can train on sexual harassment. So, that's why we use kind of – we put them all together. All three components to get it done.
Evan Gibbs:
I was just curious about your web-based training, do you use like a vendor to put that together? Or you all do it in-house?
Victoria Pasquale:
No. We actually buy it from – our learning management system creates it for us to be compliant with both New York State. We have separate ones for other states like Massachusetts, California. But it's a web-based platform. But also, we utilize, there are states that have their own components as well, like New York has a pretty in-depth sexual harassment training that they've created. So, we've utilized that as well, for some of our employees that can't get to an office if they're in an outside location, where it's a little bit easier for them to just access the New York portal and take the New York training.
Tracey Diamond:
Yes. I mean, just harassment training alone is such a big undertaking for a company of your size, where your employees are so spread out all over the country and situated in so many different clients. So, kudos to you for having such a thorough program.
In my experience, and, Evan, I'm curious whether you feel this way too. Oftentimes, I mean, I should say, actually, I can't think of a time when an employee has ever said, “Oh, yes. I get to go to harassment training today.” Usually, there's something that employees don't really want to go to, and they are sort of dialing it in. Although, once they're there, in my experience, usually not always, employees are pretty engaged, and they're a little surprised at how gray some of the examples can be, and it causes them to really think, and it turns out to be kind of a lively discussion. What have you guys experienced in that way in terms of employee engagement?
Evan Gibbs:
Lots of eye roles. Lots of eye roles. Yes, I mean, people, a lot of times they don't take it seriously in my experience. I would say the majority, especially, again, that's just my anecdotal experience. But it's been a lot of times just where rank-and-file employees just – I mean, it's hard to get their attention. Hard to get them to focus or engaged. They're just not really that interested.
The management folks are the ones that I generally have, over the years, gotten more direct interest and engagement from especially like you said, Tracey. When you get in the sort of gray areas, and they realize, “Oh wow, this is more nuanced and maybe more complicated than I originally thought.” Because I think, that's the assumption for most people coming into, is like, “Oh, my God. I mean, I know what this is. I know I can't slap my subordinate on the butt. I know I can't kiss my assistant.” People know that, and I think, that's what this is about, is telling they can't do that, like really obvious stuff.
Over the years, I developed different examples and things like that. I'm sure you all have as well that really get into those nuances and show that a lot of times, number one, it's more complicated as to what may be legal versus illegal. And also, the importance of perceptions and evidence, and things like that, I think is eye-opening for a lot of people, especially in management.
Tracey Diamond:
How about you, Victoria? Cue the eye roll? Or do you find that employees are pretty engaged?
Victoria Pasquale:
Yes, we get the eye roll. But I will tell you, after my first couple of doing it in person, I really took it back and changed how we deliver in-person trainings. Because it's what Evan said, we weren't getting nowhere. It was long. It was tedious for us too. It's an exhausting day when you have to do a couple of them. And you're like, “Oh, my gosh. Just get through it.”
So, I took it back and really changed how we deliver the message. One of the biggest things that we did as the very first slide, is we throw up every saying that we've heard throughout the years from, “Gosh, I can't even say anything anymore.” That's the number one saying is like, “How do I even talk to this person? Do I need a camera on me at all times? Should I record every conversation?” Those quotes that you hear when you're in investigations, especially of sexual harassment, that I take back and I say, “Let's just put it out there. Kind of address the elephant in the room.”
So, that's how our training – we built it. I revamped it to start that way. So, it kind of starts, I don’t want to say, with what some chuckles. Like, “Oh, yes. I've felt that. I've lived it.” Or, “You can't even say this anymore.” But then it allows us to really go in and grab their attention right from the beginning of we're going to talk about it, we're not going to – it's not about debunking, but we're definitely going to address it throughout the training. Then, really, the training process is extremely interactive. So, it is – we will call on people. We will call them out. We will call in – our managers have to be there as well with them, and will say like, “Tell me what you would do in this situation?” So, really very, very much interactive. But it didn't start that way. But that is how it is done today, which is probably why we can't do it as often as we would like, because these trainings can go for a long time with a lot of questions and a lot of different scenarios that they want advice on.
Tracey Diamond:
Well, the more questions you get, the better, because it means they're actually listening.
Victoria Pasquale:
Agreed.
Evan Gibbs:
I'm curious too, about do you split your training up between management rank-and file employees? Or you do different training programs?
Victoria Pasquale:
So, no. What we do, the leader, sexual harassment as a leader and then sexual harassment just conduct in the workplace for the employees. But our managers, when we get to the different locations for the employees, they are required to be there with the employees because we feel it sends the stronger message that they hear. They hear about it as well.
Tracey Diamond:
Managing from the top down is definitely the way to go.
All right, I'd like to pull in our episode, as we always do, looking at a TV show or movie to illustrate our point. And today's episode, which obviously, as we've been talking about is focusing on best practices in conducting harassment training. And for this discussion, we turn to Victoria's favorite TV show NCIS, which stands for Navy Crime Investigative Service. This is a long running TV show starring Mark Harmon, and it spanned across as many as 21 seasons, a lifetime for some folks. It showcases a bunch of colorful personalities as they investigate crimes, usually involving murder, committed against Navy and Marine Corps personnel.
In particular, I want to pull in an episode called Driven. That was in Season 4, Episode 11, back in 2006. It opens with the unit attending a mandatory harassment training session from the DOD. So, let's listen to a clip.
Woman Trainer:
From the video presentation, it’s clear that sexual harassment can take many forms in the workplace. A co-worker with elevator eyes, looking you up and down. A co-worker that shows you a cartoon or a photo of a sexual nature.
Man:
If you’re lucky.
Woman Trainer:
A co-workers hand accidentally brushes up against your body.
Another Woman:
If you’re really lucky.
Woman Trainer:
Physical contact can be divided into three categories. Green light includes normal behavior. Yellow light includes borderline behavior such as hugging someone or
Abby:
What’s wrong with hugging people? I hug people all the time.
Woman Trainer:
You may see it as friendly, but your co-workers may find it offensive.
Abby:
You guys get offended when I hug you?
Man:
No, of course not, Abby.
Abby:
I am hugging you all in my mind right now.
Woman Trainer:
DOD policy is very clear about this point, Miss. You must first ask permission before making physical contact with a co-worker.
Abby:
Like, every time?
Woman Trainer:
Yes. And finally, there is red light behavior such as deliberate unwelcome touching. Another question?
Man:
Yes. What if you slap someone in the back of the head like this? Would that be considered inappropriate behavior?
Woman Trainer:
Absolutely. Are you saying that this has actually happened?
Man:
No. I was just wondering, that’s all.
Evan Gibbs:
So in the clip, we heard about the trainer, she distinguished or she talked about sort of these red, yellow, green light touches. I'm curious, Victoria and Tracey, what do you think about that? I mean, do you think it's useful at all to use that type of, I guess, descriptor, with different types of conduct? Do you think it’s useful at all?
Tracey Diamond:
I have not heard of a training where it was referred to that way. In my opinion, I think it's a little broad. So, it's kind of hard to put conduct into three broad categories like that. Victoria, what do you think?
Victoria Pasquale:
Yes. I thought the same way that I had never actually heard red, yellow, or green from a conduct or touch perspective. Also, for me, when I re-listened to it after seeing the episode years ago, it really makes me question when you're asking the employee, why did you do that touch versus another touch? There's other things that could come in, like, that's culture. That's how we would do it. Then, what if it's like orange? Which way do you go? Do you go yellow? Do you go red? Then, when does it stop? So, it's just not as, I would say, black and white. But I don't know that harassment is ever black and white. But I think it adds too much gray to the situation that is not needed.
Tracey Diamond:
Not as red and green as it tends to be.
Victoria Pasquale:
Yes.
Evan Gibbs:
That's right. I think, it's a little – I might take away from watching the clip too. It was a little juvenile. I think it was sort of made for TV. I hope the training isn't conducted that simplistically, because that's exactly what leads people to see, here, they're going to have to go through this training and then start rolling eyes and dreading. Just like, “Oh, my gosh. Are you kidding me? I'm not five. You do not have to tell me about – you don’t have to color code behavior.”
Tracey Diamond:
“You’re treating me like a child.”
Evan Gibbs:
Yes. It's like you both said, over and over, it's way more nuanced than that. It's so hard to just sort of color-code it. I think it oversimplifies a complicated issue.
Tracey Diamond:
I also think it gives employees a way out, because they could just say, “Well, I thought it was yellow. That's yellow conduct.” So, it can go both ways, like yellow being the version of gray, where there's conduct which is so clearly in violation of the policy. Either it's going to violate the policy or it's not, and to put a yellow in between there, I think, just kind of is a bit of a cop out.
Evan Gibbs:
I was thinking too, what if it's like 30 instances of a yellow? I mean, it's also cumulative, too, right? I didn't hear that addressed. Maybe I'm not giving the trainer the benefit of the doubt. Maybe later in the clip, in the training. She said, “Oh, you can't do 20 yellow, just because it a yellow.” I don't know. But that's another thing that jumped out to me from that.
I mean, what do you think, can you all even identify something that you think would be yellow? In the clip, she talked about hugs being a yellow, light touch. What do you think about that? Is there anything else that y'all think that you would – if you'd gone through this training, that you would personally identify as a yellow touch?
Victoria Pasquale:
So yes, when I heard hugs. To me, that wasn't yellow. I'd be more on the orange, almost red. But when I think of how to describe that, like, “Oh, I can't give somebody a hug. I'm a hugger.” But you don't know the other person might not be. Something as simple as you could say, “Could a side hug be a yellow?” Maybe? But even still, I guess my take would be? Why do you need to hug them in the workplace? Could you just shake their hand? Or just say, “Hello.” This isn't your family. Do we need to really hug it in the workplace?
That that's what I would default to, of why did you feel like you needed to hug that person? Were they crying? Or was it just you are excited to see them? But yes, I think it's still personal, that I don't know that we really need to hug. So, I didn't take it as yellow. I thought it was red.
Evan Gibbs: That is so interesting. Because I thought – I take a hug is like more on the green side. See, reasonable minds can always differ on the stuff. That's why I think that color coding is so flawed. Because when I was geared up, I thought both of you would say, “Yes, that's probably like yellow to green.” So, that was kind of where I landed.
Tracey Diamond:
I think that context is everything. It's really hard. This goes to both of your points that it's really hard to plug this into a red, yellow, green and say, “All hugging is yellow.” Or, “All hugging is red.” Or, “All hugging is green.” Because very much, it's going to depend on the context. But I also think this is a really good illustration of how intent doesn't matter. What you guys are referring to is the character Abby, who is a hugger. And she's surprised to hear that it's not always appropriate to be hugging her coworkers, and very sort of sweetly says to the group, “Guys, is this okay, that I'm hugging you?” And they're all like, “Oh, yes, sure, it's okay.”
The trainer says, “Well, you may see it as friendly, but your coworkers may find it offensive.” And that's the operative piece here is what the coworkers feel, not what Abby thinks. Abby may think she's just being very friendly. It doesn't matter what Abby thinks. It matters how the person on the receiving end is feeling about it.
So, let's bring in a next clip. The next clip is about whether certain conduct is harassment, if it's part of the job.
Woman trainer:
Yes?
Man:
Yes. What if part of your job includes touching naked people?
Woman trainer:
That’s inappropriate at any time.
Man:
Even if they are dead?
Woman trainer:
Why are you touching dead naked people?
Tracey Diamond:
So, in real life, there are certain jobs where it is part of the job to sometimes have to view and hear about offensive conduct. For example, a healthcare worker may need to see someone's naked body. Or an HR manager may need to hear a racist joke as part of the investigation of a claim of harassment.
Another example, which I think about a lot, is when employees are hired by social media companies to view and remove offensive posts from their sites. That's a job actually. How should a company ensure that the employee who has this job that's exposing them to offensive conduct on a regular basis, how can you go about making the employee feel comfortable about that job?
Victoria Pasquale:
So, an HR, you face that every day. When you hire somebody for any, I think, any position is going to be put into situations in a leadership position that they're going to have tough conversations. They might get yelled out. They might be cursed at. We’re going to have to deal with that. But in certain situations, I think in my own HR team, you are in some tough conversations, and nobody is – I always say nobody's high-fiving, “Yay, we get to go talk to HR.” It's a matter of, before doing an investigation, they're already on the defense. They're already hands up that they think that they're in trouble. So, you're trying to get to the truth.
Sometimes, as I tell my team, you just got to let them tell the truth, but you have to be prepared that that might make you uncomfortable. In the hiring process, for me, specifically that I've done my whole career is to really be very poignant and careful to explain. Like, you're going to hear things, you're going to see things. You're going to be exposed, and if you're not prepared for that, it can really derail you. It can go home with you and that creates a problem outside of work.
So, are you prepared for that? And let's talk through. So, I ask all of my teams, tell me how you deal with it? When you hear things, or you call the name, or you’re yelled at, how do you deal with it? Then, what are some of the things that we can do to try to help with that, whether it's witnesses, or whether it's different people in the office or nearby, or in a crowded room, that might help defuse the situation if you're talking to them at a Starbucks, versus talking to them behind a closed door, and it's just you and them, can really help as well. That's some of the things that we take on that I encourage in any hiring process is to really talk about not just the day-to-day work, but what are some of the other aspects of the job.
Tracey Diamond:
I think, there's a really good approach to make sure that your employees, A, are going in. The applicant is going in with their eyes open as to what the job might entail, and that you're giving them the tools to speak up if they're feeling uncomfortable and giving them methods to maybe mitigate the feeling of being uncomfortable, doing the work that may be a little bit offensive.
So, it was interesting to learn when I was researching NCIS that the actress who played Abby, Pauley Perrette, she actually left the show abruptly in 2018, after a workplace argument with Mark Harmon, the main actor, when Mark Harmon insisted on bringing his dog on set and the dog apparently bit one or more people. Perrette then went on Twitter, and alluded to leaving the show because of, “multiple physical assaults”, which really, I thought was an interesting jumping-off point to talk about the topic of how do you address the fact that we are in the age, well into the age of social media? How do you address the topic of social media in your harassment trainings?
Victoria Pasquale:
It's a fun conversation, I think you can imagine in any day that it can get out of control very, very quickly. So, because you're walking a fine line, the company of what is their free speech, and their freedom of expression, and then what is also bad mouthing the company. So, in our harassment policies, as well as when they are first hired, we go over exactly what is our social media policy. It's spelled out in the handbook. It’s spelled out in our Code of Conduct of what can and cannot be posted, or should and should not be posted as far as the company. But I will say, we do walk a fine line, if a person posts something about what has been done to them, and not necessarily, I would say, calling out the company. So, is it really against the company? Or are they expressing their right to say what they want to say, publicly?
Yes, I think you can do the broad case of the social media policies, but then, every single case can change immediately by what is said and whether or not it truly violates the internal policy, or is it public expression?
Tracey Diamond:
Definitely a fine line there. Evan, how about you? How do you handle the electronic media, social media, as a component of your harassment training presentations?
Evan Gibbs:
Yes. I mean, what I've always said, and I think, you find this in a lot of the policies as well, is to make it really clear to folks that the stuff that happens online, whether it's going into somebody's direct messages on Instagram, or whatever, just because you're doing it online, out of the workplace, it can still violate federal and state harassment laws. You can't harass somebody that you know at work through their direct messages, just like you couldn't do it to them in the plant floor or in the office, in a cubicle, or whatever the case may be.
I think that that's always been, to me, a pretty important point to convey, because I think a lot of folks, and I've gotten these questions before that some folks feel like, “Well, it's my personal time. If I want to hit on somebody that I work with, and I don't do it at work intentionally, so I'm not violating a policy. I mean, it's my personal time. I can do whatever I want.” And making clear that there are limitations around that outside of the workplace, or at least very real, legal implications can flow from that, I think has always been something that I've wanted to make really clear from the beginning. Especially, for managers, who may follow subordinates or vice versa, and then may see some of this kind of conduct online, knowing that there could be things that they need to report that they've seen, in their personal Instagram feed, or LinkedIn, or wherever the case may be, that they need to keep an eye out for that stuff. Even when they may be sort of off the clock and maybe not thinking about work. So yes, I think it's definitely a really important component of the training and policies.
Tracey Diamond:
Because it's a really important component of a lot of the litigation, right? Now, these days, most harassment cases rise and fall on what's in a text message? What's in an instant message? What's in an email? And employees, even now, even after we've said it over, and over, and over again, employees don't realize that these electronic communications really can't be deleted, and they are around forever, and they become a piece of evidence in a litigation.
Evan Gibbs:
Yes, for sure. I think that's always – and just to that point, I'll say that, that's a really good point to make clear to folks is that, just because a communication occurs on a personal device, in a personal email account, on a personal social media account, we will absolutely find it. You can't do it and delete it. So, don't think that you're going to be sly, and you're going to delete it. We will find it. It will come back out. So, if it's something bad, you need to assume that you're creating a permanent record. I mean, this comes up in like every case that I deal with.
Tracey Diamond:
Every case?
Evan Gibbs:
Yes, every time. It's either text messages left. In my experience, it’s less often social media. But I mean, it's always text messages, every time.
Tracey Diamond:
And instant messages. I've been seeing more and more cases where instant messages can be – I mean, all of it is evidence, if you find it. And it goes both ways, because it may go to show the harassment or prove the harassment, but it also may prove that there's consensual relationship going on here. So, let everybody be aware of what you're saying on these electronic communication programs.
One other topic I want to hit is the character Tony in NCIS. He is quite the character. He's constantly sort of hitting people on the back of the head, and making comments, and just saying and doing things that are just so inappropriate for the workplace. In some respects, I feel like these episodes a little dated now. It's back from 2006. I wonder if they would even make an episode that show this kind of blatant behavior in this day and age. Although, who knows?
I read a comment on Reddit that said, “Face it, Tony is a human resource manager’s nightmare. His consistent comments and sexual innuendos would leave the agency, meaning NCIS, open to a lot of liability.” And then there was this guy named Gibbs, not our Evan Gibbs, who was his immediate supervisor, and this Reddit comment, they said that, “Gibbs as his immediate supervisor would be in trouble for not addressing the issue nor reporting it. Good thing, this is a TV show.” What's your feeling about that? Where are supervisory responsibilities? And how do you address that in training?
Victoria Pasquale:
Yes. So, the supervisors, it's a definitely a hard one for them when they see it, because they're already struggling with is this really bad? Is this okay? They're walking, we’ll say, the yellow line. Is it really reportable? Is it not reportable? Also, in the back of their head, they're probably saying, “Is this going to be more work for me too?” So, if I report it, am I going to have to investigate it? Is it really that bad?
So really, those are the conversations that we talked about is the moment you send it to HR, think of it this way, you're not telling anybody. Yes, you're reporting it. But you're handing it off. So, when you alert HR, we're taking it from you. Think of it as a way to take workload off your back of, “Hey, I saw this”, and let HR make the decision whether or not to have those conversations. Let us decide whether or not we need to go and view, or see, or talk to that employee. But also, really think of it from a perspective of, it's now handed off to HR.
We might have to talk to you about how many times this has happened or you've seen it. But we're not going to give it back to you from an investigation standpoint. So, that has really helped drive the message within my own company, about tell us what's going on? Or hotline, the ethics hotline. If it's a safety issue, give it to us, and let the experts weigh in and kind of take it from you. But it's definitely a supervisor we drill at home in our annual trainings about, it is the expectation that if you see something that you know is not right, or you're questioning whether it should happen or not, that is something that you should report. Because if you're questioning that there's a part of you that says, “This doesn't feel right.” Give it to us and let us take it from there.
Tracey Diamond:
It's a perfect example why I love talking to my clients, because that practical approach of, I know my managers are going to think this is more work for them, and how can I mitigate that by just presenting it as, “I'm taking it off your hands. I'm not making more work for you.” It's not something I would have thought about.
All right. Well, before we wrap up, any other best practices that you guys think we should be mentioning in terms of conducting harassment training, either for managers, or for the rank-and-file employees?
Evan Gibbs:
I think the things that you mentioned, Victoria, about making the training interactive, focusing on the gray areas, and like just not making it a snooze fest. I mean, I think those are, to me, the key things that should go into the training, because you want the people to be engaged. You want to care about it. If it's just coming in and listening to a speaker for 30 minutes, I mean, that's just not – that's not going to be effective. It's not going to – no one's going to pay any attention, and they're going to leave having not learned anything, and it's really going to get you nowhere. I've just, unfortunately, seen too many of those programs set up like that, where it's just – I mean, I wouldn't be able to stay awake through it.
Tracey Diamond:
Any last words of advice, Victoria?
Victoria Pasquale:
Yes. The one thing I end every training that I do is, it's not about what the gender label is, or what we're calling this today, or what we called it yesterday. It really comes down to just respect for the human being, and how you would want to be respected. So, really, it's not about whether or not you need to record or have a camera on you at all times, or did you say the right thing, or you can't say anything right. It comes down to just are you respecting them as a human being. It doesn't matter what your beliefs are or what their beliefs are. It's just human dignity, like they’re human beings. So, respect. That's always the message I leave with, at the end of every training is, if you walk out of here and you respected everybody, then the message was received. So, that's what I would end with.
Tracey Diamond:
I love that.
Evan Gibbs:
That's a really good way to phrase it. Yes, I like that.
Tracey Diamond:
Both of your points about how things come and go, type of technology comes and goes, ways to harass, what's considered norm now versus what's not the cultural norm from before. That stuff changes and we have to keep evolving in our training to keep it fresh and current. But I love that focus on respect and bringing it home to, this is really just about treating each other with respect. It's really a great way for us to wrap things up.
Thank you so much for joining us today, Victoria. This was a really interesting discussion. Thank you for clueing me into NCIS. I'm now a groupie.
Evan Gibbs:
Yes. Thank you.
Tracey Diamond:
I have 22 seasons to watch.
Victoria Pasquale:
Welcome to the group. Better get going, the new one just came out.
Tracey Diamond:
Oh, man. It’s a show that is not going away anytime soon. But yes, it's really a lot of fun. Thank you to our listeners. Please don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. Shoot us a message, tell us what you think, and check out our blog, HiringToFiring.Law. Thanks so much everybody.
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