Emily Schifter and Tracey Diamond explore the art of giving and receiving feedback in the workplace. Joined by Tara Weintritt from the Wicker Park Group, they discuss the importance of creating a culture of feedback, best practices in giving and receiving feedback, and the value of specificity and data in measuring and evaluating performance.
In this episode of Hiring to Firing, hosts Emily Schifter and Tracey Diamond explore the art of giving and receiving feedback in the workplace. Joined by Tara Weintritt from the Wicker Park Group, they discuss the importance of creating a culture of feedback, best practices in giving and receiving feedback, and the value of specificity and data in measuring and evaluating performance. Listen as Harry Potter favorites Professor Severus Snape, Professor Albus Dumbledore, and Hermione Granger help illustrate effective and ineffective feedback practices, providing practical tips for managers and employees alike. Tune in to learn how to enhance your feedback skills and foster a more productive and supportive work environment.
Troutman Pepper Locke's Labor + Employment Practice Group provides comprehensive thought leadership through various channels. We regularly issue advisories that offer timely insights into the evolving employment law landscape, and maintain the HiringToFiring.Law Blog, a resource spotlighting best practices for employers. Our Hiring to Firing Podcast, hosted by Tracey Diamond and new co-host Emily Schifter, delves into pressing labor and employment law topics, drawing unique parallels from pop culture, hit shows, and movies.
Hiring to Firing Podcast — Enhancing Workplace Feedback: Lessons From Harry Potter
Hosts: Tracey Diamond and Emily Schifter
Guest: Tara Weintritt, Wicker Park Group
Recorded: October 16, 2024
Aired: January 14, 2025
Tracey Diamond:
Today's episode is on giving and receiving feedback. Emily, do you have any stories about ever receiving feedback or giving feedback?
Emily Schifter:
I do. My very first job, I was a junior counselor at a sleepaway camp one summer, and I have never forgotten this lesson. Clearly, I still remember it today. One of our tasks as camp counselors was to write letters home to the parents of the campers that we had in our cabin. I spent hours coming up with personalized letters for every camper. I didn't want to write the same letter to every parent. I wanted them to have personalized stories and anecdotes and spent hours working on them up to the last minute and turn them in.
The feedback that I got on these letters I was so proud of was these are terrible. I'm a total typical millennial. I have awful handwriting. I am great at typing, but cannot write with a pen to save my life. It was such an interesting lesson for me and just because you think that you're sending something out to the world in a way doesn't mean that it's perceived that way. Sometimes the polish is just as important as the content. I redid them and fixed the handwriting and was able to have both the content and the style up to sniff, but it was certainly a lesson in learning to take direction and learning different management styles.
Tracey Diamond:
Great, great story about being open to receiving feedback, something that obviously, Emily, to this day is thinking about.
Emily Schifter:
That’s right. Never forgot.
Tracey Diamond:
Today, we have Tara Weintritt from the Wicker Park Group joining us. Listen in as we talk about all things Harry Potter and giving and receiving feedback.
[INTRO]
Emily Schifter:
Welcome to Hiring to Firing the Podcast. I'm Emily Schifter, and I'm here with my partner, Tracey Diamond. Together we tackle all employment issues from Hiring to Firing.
Tracey Diamond:
Today, we welcome Tara Weintritt, a partner at Wicker Park Group. Wicker Park helps law firms and other professional service firms build client loyalty through a variety of client feedback services. It feels good to have you here today, Tara. Both Emily and I have heard you speak many times and always a treat to see you up on the stage and we're really thrilled to have you here. Thanks for joining us.
Tara Weintritt:
Thanks for having me.
Tracey Diamond:
Why don't we start by hearing a little bit from you about Wicker Park Group and your role with providing feedback?
Tara Weintritt:
Sure. So, Wicker Park Group's been in business since 2007 and where you like to say we're in the business of creating dramatic client loyalty. So, we are lucky enough to talk to clients on behalf of law firms and sort of bring their perspective and voice back to the law firms to really improve client relationships.
So, we love what we do, and my business partner says that we are relationship counselors for lawyers and their clients and sort of bring that perspective and each to really just broaden and deepen the relationship. We talk to clients on behalf of law firms every day and then bring that perspective and experience and preference back to the law firm to help improve relationships. We are big proponents of feedback, for sure.
Tracey Diamond:
How did you wind up in this area? It is sort of so specific in terms of working with lawyers from a client-facing role and bringing the information back to the law firms?
Tara Weintritt:
Yes. I started at a law firm after an agency and sort of a funny role of being placed at a law firm. I really didn't even understand that this was a role. We were doing strategic planning at the law firm. It was perplexing to me that we didn't bring in the voice of the client and the perspective as we were planning for the next kind of five years. So, proposed it to a chairman 15, 20 years ago, “Why don't we talk to our clients to see what matters most to them and their perspective, and how we can do better, and what we're doing particularly well?” Sort of loved it, loved talking to the clients, loved that, how receptive the lawyers were to it, and realized there was just an opportunity to sort of bridge those perspective and voices. I've been doing it ever since.
Emily Schifter:
So interesting.
Tracey Diamond:
It really is. I thought you were the perfect person to talk about our subject for today, which is feedback, since you are literally in the feedback business. We are talking today about what is feedback and what makes it so important in just, generally, in the workplace, not just in law firms.
Tara Weintritt:
Yes, absolutely. I don't think there's enough of it, right? Certainly, sort of the back-and-forth feedback. In today's day and age, in the world of social media, I think there's a lot of commenting, which is different than providing feedback in the premise of wanting for improvement, or having someone's best interests in mind, or being better together. I think we certainly fall in that perspective of feedback as a beautiful gift when given in a genuine way that resonates with everybody's best interests in mind and not commenting to throw something out there where nobody has an opportunity to respond back.
Emily Schifter:
I love that phrasing, commenting, because I think that's so true. I think sometimes it comes from a place of not knowing how to give feedback or being scared to give constructive feedback, be worried about how it'll be perceived. But I think you're so right that it's something at least in the employment context we see employees always want, whether they're high performing or developing in their roles. So, I think you're 100% right.
But before we dive into our movie tie-in from today, and spoiler alert, it's Harry Potter. Maybe let's start with why is giving feedback so important? You've already touched on a couple of reasons, but what are some other things that you think of?
Tara Weintritt:
Yes. I think the old saying, sort of the assumption piece of it, right? Without that feedback, I think we tend to leap towards things that may not be true or we make assumptions about things, or we think someone has a preference because of one interaction. I think the beauty of feedback, particularly in an ongoing way or a formal way in which you're doing it, is clarification.
The clarity of expectations, everything from what is working to what small things that would make it that much better. I think feedback, a lot of times, doesn't have to be drastic. In our world, when we get feedback from the client, it's the smallest things that really make a difference and make these relationships, or the smallest things that really break the relationship, right? These nuances that – and sometimes when you've been working together for a while, it's hard to give feedback sometimes if you know the person so well.
So, the formal settings and how you all are doing it, I think really allow that, where it's comfortable and appropriate, and that we're big fans of it, and I think everybody sees it as a gift, certainly.
Tracey Diamond:
Yes, I think what you just touched on is particularly interesting in that it's such a component of good management. Oftentimes I see managers struggling between wanting to be the friend of their employees and really hard to have that hard conversation with employees who are your friends. So many things can go wrong in that way. There's unconscious bias. There may be, you're letting your friend off the hook where you might not let employees that you don't like as much off the hook, and you're not providing what your employee may really need in terms of their own success, in terms of giving them information so that they know what they're doing right, but also what they're doing wrong and where there are opportunities to improve.
Tara Weintritt:
Absolutely. I do think oftentimes it comes with good intention not to provide feedback. You want to save somebody or you are their friend. But the reality is if you're giving feedback, that's actually a gift to them, a clarity up to succeed, and you hear so often in our world, “Oh, I've been working with them for 20 years, I haven't thought to tell them this,” or “I don't want to hurt their feelings, but this is really something that would make such a difference or this nuance isn't going well.” I think if you can lean to the feedback and say this is such a gift that it really makes a difference.
Emily Schifter:
And I love the idea of praising positive things too. I think sometimes, especially in the HR world, we're so focused on how do we document the negative or we've got to fix this issue. But I think that idea of pointing out what's going right, even the little things is so helpful, not just for letting your star employees know that they're doing really well, but also just for encouraging employees or helping engage them to know that we're not just looking for ways to cut you down.
Tara Weintritt:
Yes. When we do training for feedback, we often train people on how to give, or how to get feedback on their own. We often say, “Personalize the positive, depersonalize the negative, and start with the positive.” We just wanted to lean in and really tell you how much of it. So, when we're giving the feedback to the lawyers, we often say that, “Here's the things that you're doing particularly well, that they really love, that you want to continue. And here's a really small thing that you can change to make it that much better.”
Tracey Diamond:
Isn't there a cliché about that? Something about like the hug sandwich or the hug before you hit?
Tara Weintritt:
Yes, I don't know the acronym or what it is, but I'm a big fan. Yes.
Tracey Diamond:
I'm just curious. Do you see any kind of generational difference in your world in terms of kinds of a certain age being more or less willing to give feedback or lawyers of a certain age wanting very much to your feedback or are trying to avoid receiving feedback? I think that that can be extrapolated to the workplace generally.
Tara Weintritt:
Yes. It's such an interesting topic. There's definitely generational divides, both in the way it's delivered, the comfort and the candor. I do think the older generation, I think is always interested in how it's being delivered, specifically if their name is going to be attached to it and that type of thing. Then from there on, kind of the generations, sort of in the midsection and the younger, I think are very open to feedback and sort of they're brought up in that world and they're sort of, “Sure, put my name next to it. Tell them exactly that this is how I said it,” that type of thing. I think the younger generation is more open to it.
Tracey Diamond:
I wonder if that has anything to do with technology in general, the younger generation kind of growing up with technology just always being in their face. They're on social media. They're constantly getting feedback in real-time. They're constantly posting pictures. They're on TikTok. They're on Snapchat.
Emily Schifter:
In the public eye. Right.
Tracey Diamond:
Yes, it's the world they grew up in, and so the expectation is to carry that into the workplace. Whereas the older generation really just shies away from that. It's awkward to them.
Tara Weintritt:
It's definitely not a culture or environment that they grew up in, and I think there was sort of this, “We know best that we don't need to get feedback,” whereas I think in your world, in our world, if we look at our even significant other relationships that we're all going to be better if we're sort of sharing this candor and feedback for one another. We always say the most important thing is feedback is about the individual often giving it, which I'm not necessarily about you, but it's their perception or their perspective or they're in your world, like what the company needs and expects, and it's not always about the individual. So, I think that is really important, just to be open to it and see it as a gift.
Tracey Diamond:
All right. We're way overdue to introduce our movie. So, let's do that. And of course, Emily teased it for us. In this instance, it's a series of movies. We chose the Harry Potter movies for our topic of feedback. Harry Potter, for the probably less than 1% of the world that doesn't know is the beloved series of movies based off J.K. Rowling's novels that chronicle the lives of young wizard Harry Potter and his friends as they work their way through seven years of magical education at the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry.
Emily Schifter:
The Harry Potter series maybe wouldn't at first blush seem like it's relevant to the topic of feedback, but actually there's lots of good examples of both good and bad ways of giving feedback. So, turning to our first example, this is Professor Snape giving some feedback to Harry.
[BEGIN CLIP]
Snape:
Every memory he has access to is a weapon he can use against you. You won't last
two seconds if he invades your mind. You're just like your father. Lazy, arrogant.
Harry:
Don't say a word against my father.
Snape:
Weak.
Harry:
I'm not weak.
Snape:
Then prove it. Control your emotions. Discipline your mind. Legilimens.
Harry:
Sirius.
Snape:
I may vomit.
Harry:
Stop it.
Snape:
Is this what you call control?
Harry:
We've been at it for hours. If I could just rest.
Snape:
The Dark Lord isn't resting. You and Black, you’re two of a kind, sentimental children forever whining about how bitterly unfair your lives have been. Well, it may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair. Your blessed father knew that. In fact, he frequently saw to it.
Harry:
My father was a great man.
Snape:
Your father was a swine.
[END CLIP]
Emily Schifter:
So, what are some takeaways from this clip in terms of but not to do with giving feedback? I know I can point to one, which is directly to what you just mentioned about focusing on the person versus the performance. Here, I think Snape is very negative and on Harry and Focus is calling him lazy, as opposed to his performance and saying what he's doing wrong. He's personalizing the negative and deeper. He doesn't give any positive.
Tara Weintritt:
Right, absolutely. We've all been in that comparison as well, I think is just, that puts someone immediately on the defense. I think if you're going to do comparison, oftentimes in feedback, we'll ask about, tell us about your favorite lawyer or law firm and what do they do particularly well. So, if you're going to compare, give an example of something that's doing something positive and then in the feedback world, you don't have to give like your co-workers doing something better than you, right? But an example of positive and then a negative, giving the sort of constructive piece of specifics rather than about the person. Maybe we never say, and they told us that, “You did this.”
Emily Schifter:
Right, exactly. And Snape brings in Harry's father and compares his conduct. It's an emotional attack, but also, kind of doing exactly what you're saying of bringing in that comparison in a way that's negative and counterproductive.
Tracey Diamond:
I also think Snape is a good example of sort of managing through fear and so he has Harry always on the alert and always sort of afraid which I think to your point, Tara, about being defensive. Once you have the person on the receiving end becoming defensive, you've kind of lost the battle, haven't you? Because now they're really not going to hear what you have to say because they're too busy thinking about all the reasons why you're wrong.
Tara Weintritt:
It's so true. Coming in with a place of, I want to clarify so that we can be successful together of what we need, right? Or this is something you did particularly well and here's something small that you could make it that much better, but he does fear-based and horrible and making it all about him. So, a great example, I love it. Who knew Harry Potter could?
Emily Schifter:
That's right.
Tracey Diamond:
What are your thoughts about general feedback versus getting into the details? Do you tend to get sort of into – dive into the details and give lots of examples? Or is it more sort of broad-based thematic feedback?
Tara Weintritt:
We start with broad-based thematic in terms of what really is important to them or what's going particularly well in the relationship. Tell us a little bit about what matters most to you or when they think of the relationship, what is it? Then we absolutely get very specific in terms of things that matter most to them, or how can we help them succeed? What's something specific to them that they are looking to accomplish and how can the firm or the lawyers help them do that?
So, I think without concrete you're in the obscure again and you're led to assume and that clarity it's often very specific and we would work big proponents of that.
Tracey Diamond:
Yes. I would think that specific also helps to sort of give support and examples of the theme. So, giving the theme sets the tone, but then by providing the details, you're explaining how you arrived at that theme to begin with, because the theme in some respect is sort of the conclusion, right?
Tara Weintritt:
Yes, absolutely.
Tracey Diamond:
And then do you use a lot of data? I think you do use a lot of data.
Tara Weintritt:
We use a ton of data. Because we work with so many law firms and we've talked to clients now for two decades, we look at trend analysis of how that feedback has changed year-over-year, and things that become important, for instance, in a snapshot in time. I think that's important to understand these organizations where certain priorities become important or certain skills or what we're focused on becomes important. So, that clarity of sharing, and so a lot of times we're asking clients about their initiatives, their priorities, their focus, so that we can align with those. I think that's what feedback is so great about is that you're clear on what everybody's end goal is.
Tracey Diamond:
So, using that as an analogy for performance management in the workplace, Emily, what do you think was the takeaway there in terms of the general versus the specifics and the data-driven analysis?
Emily Schifter:
I think that fits perfectly from an HR perspective. We're always telling managers if you can be specific and provide specific examples, even better if you can use data, which is easy in some roles. If you're supposed to sell 10 widgets a day and you sell 6, that's open and shut. But so often it's, well, they're not a good fit, or I just feel like they're not engaged, or they don't really seem to be a contributing member of the team. When you say something like that, it can be really right for somebody to say, “Well, that's not really a legitimate basis to criticize my performance. It's got to be because of my protected characteristic instead.” When you're able to point to specific examples that really support the theme, the conclusion, that led to your point, Tracey, that makes it a lot clearer both for the employee and if you unfortunately find yourself in the position of having to defend that review later on, you've got something objective to point to that's not just based on the personality, or kind of a general statement that's really hard to differentiate.
Tracey Diamond:
Absolutely. I think that's a really good way of giving how the feedback in the lawyer world sort of goes to the feedback in the HR world generally. So, Snape is our one example of maybe not quite the best way to be giving feedback. What's our other character that we can compare him to that maybe does a better job of giving feedback?
Emily Schifter:
The kind of complete opposite of Snape is of course Dumbledore, truly a beloved character in the books and the movies. So, let's take a listen to an example of Dumbledore giving Harry some advice.
[BEGIN CLIP]
Dumbledore:
Help will always be given at Hogwarts, Harry, to those who ask for it. I've always prized myself on my ability to turn a phrase. Words are, in my not-so-humble opinion, our most inexhaustible source of magic, capable of both inflicting injury and remedying it. But I would, in this case, amend my original statement to this. Help would always be given at Hogwarts to those who deserve it. Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living. And above all, all those who live without love.
[END CLIP]
Emily Schifter:
We all love Dumbledore, but one thing that we started thinking of listening to this clip is, was this feedback actually helpful to Harry, kind of to the point we were talking about before? It's not very specific. It's maybe reassuring and inspirational. Certainly, there's a time and a place for that type of feedback or that type of motivation, but there's nothing in his message that is objective or gives Harry a measurable goal that he's trying to improve on or anything in particular.
So, maybe an interesting question is, do you see a time and a place for kind of more of that aspirational, “Hey, the relationship is going well and we think things are good and just want to make sure we're on the right track,” versus that, “Let's talk about the little things that you do day to day that could be better or could be worse.”
Tara Weintritt:
Absolutely. We're big fans of creating a culture of feedback, as we say, right? So, there's a time and a place for some formal feedback, whether that's at the beginning of the year or sort of a kickoff of year-in-review of what happened, where everybody's focused in the beginning. Let's have a formal setting of that. Or year-in reviews, as we look at kind of Q4 and going into that. Let's do a little forward review and some pre-planning, talk about things that are really working and anything that needs to change or has changed going forward.
But ongoing, just even as you introduce new team members or as you move pieces or initiatives or whatever, just to get that cadence in there and checkpoint of, is this going the way you wanted? Is this new team member fitting in that way? We handled it this way. Is that similar to how you wanted him? All of that is really critical. I think just that touch point of, is this going how you want it to do. So, I think we always say we're in the business of feedback, so we're constantly asking for feedback. How did that go? Did that conversation go in the way that you wanted it to? Did we make you look good behind the scenes? Little things to just constantly open the door for feedback so that the clients become very comfortable providing that to you over time.
Tracey Diamond:
So, good tips for an employee, right? For an employee to go to their manager and say, “How am I doing? Am I making you look good manager? What can I be doing better to make you look better?” If that's an appropriate relationship to be able to – if you're in that kind of relationship where you're in the business of making your manager look better.
Emily Schifter:
Yes, I think that's right.
Tara Weintritt:
Yes, I think specifics are so important in any of this. When we provide feedback for reports to the law firm. We'll very specifically highlight, these are the things that you are doing that they value and they want you to continue. And then here are either things that other firms are doing that are something you should consider, or one or two small things that would make the relationship that much better and even better. You can kind of phrase it in that pyramid.
Emily Schifter:
I think the idea of creating a culture of feedback is something that's also a good set of advice for employers. Both employees asking for feedback and managers giving it, it gives you that opportunity to give the formal, your performance review, something on a year-end, but also those day to day conversations, and gives the employees a chance to ask about specific things that they may be wondering about that their manager didn't think to bring up. I think the idea of making that a two-way street where everyone feels comfortable sharing is certainly something that employers could be thinking about.
Tracey Diamond:
Easier said than done, though, right? Because there are people that are really shying away from giving needed feedback. We talked a little bit before about generational differences there, but leaving that aside, why do you think, in general, people may be reluctant to give feedback?
Tara Weintritt:
I do think that there is an initial sort of hurting of feelings, right? The minute you've built a relationship, and it's hard when you get to know someone. So, I think it comes from a good place, I do think whether you're giving specifics or not, people feel as though it's personal. And I think if you can move it back from deliverable of work product or in the way in which you're doing something specific, that it becomes less personal and it is more of, this is how our organization likes to work or communicate, or we always provide agendas and whatever little agendas and – little nuances really make a difference rather than, your conversation early of fit or it doesn't feel like we hear those words and we've all – I led big teams back at law firms and we all know that's the case, but without those concrete, “I needed you to do this.” Or, “This would have been really helpful.” Or, “Let me,” in the future, I think this is something specifically you could do to be more successful with all as how I've sort of approached feedback.
Tracey Diamond:
That makes a lot of sense. I think just telling someone they're not a good fit, they don't know how to improve from that. But saying to someone, I needed you to do X, Y, Z, and this is what I need going forward, that gives you something to measure against, maybe at the formal review time, which is where we are right now in the season. So, this is very timely. In terms of where you did or didn't measure up, because you gave specific directions.
Tara Weintritt:
Yes. I've managed teams in the past. I've talked to people who have managed teams. I do think that we were – to answer your question about why aren't people giving feedback. I think we've gotten to a place to where, if it doesn't feel extreme or horrible, it's sort of like, “Well, we'll just allow and maintain.”
I mean, I heard an interview two days ago, and the woman said, “We don't have the right people. We’ve done whatever, but a body is better than nobody.” She's really unhappy, and there was a lot of things, whatever, but she was like, “I can give this feedback in a meaningful way until I have another person to replace them.” So, I think it's, we're all a bit drinking on a fire hose, survival mode. But then, okay, what do you specifically need them to do to get to a better place? And/or what's the timeline if you're not? I mean, I think that's what you guys would recommend. I'm not that labor and employment lawyer. I feel like that's what people are operating like. Unless it's horrible, I don't need to give feedback and I don't have time to give good feedback.
Tracey Diamond:
Yes, I think that's a really important point. Look, at the end of the day, nobody's indispensable. And too often, I think employers feel held hostage by their mediocre employees because they're just so afraid of having to put in the work to find somebody new and train them up to replace them. But at the end of the day, it's always easier than I think it's going to be to replace the person. So, that shouldn't be a reason to put up with a mediocre employee and certainly not a reason to avoid the feedback to try to make that mediocre employee do better. Right?
Emily Schifter:
Yes. Right.
Tara Weintritt:
Exactly. Yes. I heard this great phrase in interview the other day, “Pain of change versus pain of same.” I think this idea of, and we see this in law firms, of giving feedback to them of, “I'm dissatisfied in this area. Do I want to switch to a new one?” Same with the feedback of a team. So, I think this idea of, “This is pain call. You need to improve. Here's how we can get better and here are few things that you're doing well.”
Emily Schifter:
We see that a lot with employers too, where they just sort of let somebody limp along for a while. Then, they do get a replacement or they have an opportunity to let that person go, and it's a total shock to the employee, because they've not been managed. Nobody wanted to have those conversations. That's where we tend to see claims get brought. So, I think, it's an important point.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we've been talking about it in the employee, employer or client law firm context, but feedback doesn't always come from the top down necessarily. We've got one more clip from our favorite overachiever, Hermione. So, here Hermione is giving us some feedback or maybe some correction on the proper way to perform a spell. Maybe not the most gentle way to deliver that message, but it's certainly one that I think a lot of us are familiar with.
[BEGIN CLIP]
Ron:
Wingardrium Leviosar.
Hermione:
Stop. Stop. Stop. You're going to take someone's eye out. Besides, you’re saying it wrong. It's Levi-o-sa, not Leviosar.
Ron:
You do it then, if you're so clever. Go on, go on.
Hermione:
Wingardium Leviosa.
Flitwick:
Oh, well done. See here, everyone, Miss Granger's done it. Oh, splendid.
Seamus:
Wingard Leviosa. Wingar –
Flitwick:
Well done, dear. Whoa. Oh.
Harry:
I think we're going to need another feather over here, Professor.
[END CLIP]
Tracey Diamond:
I have to say, I love this clip because Hermione is so stinking adorable at it. She's like the bossy sister, right? I don't think that the way she did it is necessarily making her friends feel any better or even really teaching them all that much, so I'm not sure that's the best way to give feedback.
Tara Weintritt:
It’s so true. It made me think of it, and so I grew up reading Harry Potter to my kids, and I was telling them about this podcast, and I have, my oldest is a daughter, and my younger two are two boys, and they would say, “She's a little bit of a bossy, Hermione.” The other day, my middle son said, “I hear what you're trying to tell me, but it's lost in translation of how you're saying it.”
Tracey Diamond:
Oh.
Emily Schifter:
Powerful.
Tara Weintritt:
It was an interesting discussion that I won't go down and rev on, but I do think so much as tone and genuineness and are you coming from a good place and sometimes you have a really good perspective or you often, but how you're delivering it is lost.
Tracey Diamond:
Yes. So, last question, what about feedback going the other way? In other words, when the employee needs to manage up, what are some ways to solicit and receive feedback going where the employee wants to give feedback to the managers? From the manager's point of view, what's the best way to have an open mind and receive that feedback and the spirit that is being given?
Tara Weintritt:
I love it. Back to the sort of the culture of feedback. I think small moments. So, as the manager saying, “Hey, I just want to open this up and let you know, let's make this a two-way street. Let me know how I can help you succeed if there's something specific. I think you have to open that up initially. I think for the junior and the employee to ask concrete things in that scenario, in that presentation, in that setting, in that meeting, in that project, was there something specific that I did particularly well that I should continue, and/or was there something that you wish I would have done a little differently? I think if you can limit it and make it concrete, that can be really helpful.
Tracey Diamond:
So, from the employees perspective, it would be, “Manager, I really love working with you, but there was this one instance where I saw that maybe you did X, Y, Z that maybe it could have gone better if you did A, B, C instead.”
Tara Weintritt:
Yes.
Tracey Diamond:
So again, being really specific, right?
Tara Weintritt:
Yes, exactly. Or if you can tie it back to previous feedback, I think that can be helpful, right? You had mentioned that you wanted me to do this in a previous interview, it would be helpful if you did this so I could do that. I think that can be really powerful to like utilize, I'm trying to get better in the things that you talked about and can you give me some concrete ways to do that?
Tracey Diamond:
This is what I need from you in order to be successful myself.
Tara Weintritt:
Yes. It’s for something that you asked me to do.
Tracey Diamond:
It's a two-way street. Well, this has been a great conversation. Tara, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you, listeners, for listening into our Harry Potter feedback episode. Please check out our other podcast episodes wherever you get your podcasts and also our blog, hiringtofiring.law. Thanks for listening.
Copyright, Troutman Pepper Locke LLP. These recorded materials are designed for educational purposes only. This podcast is not legal advice and does not create an attorney-client relationship. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individual participants. Troutman does not make any representations or warranties, express or implied, regarding the contents of this podcast. Information on previous case results does not guarantee a similar future result. Users of this podcast may save and use the podcast only for personal or other non-commercial, educational purposes. No other use, including, without limitation, reproduction, retransmission or editing of this podcast may be made without the prior written permission of Troutman Pepper Locke. If you have any questions, please contact us at troutman.com.