Troutman Pepper's Tracey Diamond and Evan Gibbs and Chiomenti Law Firm's Annalisa Reale examine the differences between Italian and U.S. employment laws, touching on the evolving issue of enforceability of noncompete agreements across the world.
In this episode of the Hiring to Firing Podcast, hosts Tracey Diamond and Evan Gibbs dive into international waters with Annalisa Reale, a Labor and Employment partner of the Chiomenti Law Firm in Milan, Italy. Inspired by season two of the popular TV show, White Lotus, set in Taormina, Sicily, Annalisa shares insights from representing Italy's luxury fashion and hospitality clients in employment issues. Listen in as the group examines the differences between Italian and U.S. employment laws, touching on the evolving issue of enforceability of noncompete agreements across the world.
Troutman Pepper's Labor + Employment Practice Group provides comprehensive thought leadership through various channels. We regularly issue advisories that offer timely insights into the evolving employment law landscape, and maintain the HiringToFiring.Law Blog, a resource spotlighting best practices for employers. Our Hiring to Firing Podcast, hosted by Tracey Diamond and Evan Gibbs, delves into pressing labor and employment law topics, drawing unique parallels from pop culture, hit shows, and movies.
Hiring to Firing Podcast — Exploring Employment Law Across Borders: Italy vs. US With White Lotus
Hosts: Tracey Diamond and Evan Gibbs
Guests: Annalisa Reale
Recorded 7/15/24
Evan Gibbs:
Today is our first international episode of our podcast. And we've got a really cool discussion with an attorney from Italy who's going to talk through lots of issues with us. Speaking of Italy, Tracey, what's your favorite city in Italy? I know you've been more than once. What's your favorite spot?
Tracey Diamond:
I haven't been everywhere in Italy. And there's lots of places I'd still like to visit. I would say the most picturesque place I've ever been was the top of the sort of like a gondola ride in Capri looking out over the island with the water in the distance. It's just such a peaceful 20 minutes. No phones. Nobody bothering me asking for anything. I was able to just sit in this little seat for one going up the mountain looking out on this beautiful day. I would say that was probably one of my best Italian experiences.
Evan Gibbs:
That's great.
Tracey Diamond:
Listen in for our episode on the differences between Italian and US law.
[INTRODUCTION]
Tracey Diamond:
Welcome to Hiring to Firing the podcast. Today, we have our first-ever global Hiring to Firing podcast episode. And our special guest today is Annalisa Reale, who is an attorney. Annalisa, what is the name of your law firm?
Annalisa Reale:
My firm? Chiomenti, which is very difficult to pronounce. It's an Italian-based firm. An international firm, which strong roots in the US as well. This is your first learning today. Chiomenti. Very difficult.
Tracey Diamond:
Chiomenti. Love it. How did I do? Probably not well.
Annalisa Reale:
Very good. Excellent pronouncing.
Tracey Diamond:
Anyway. Annalisa and I met a couple months ago. And we're thrilled to have you here on our transatlantic podcast. Annalisa, you've spent a lot of time in the US. What would you say are the major differences in terms of employment issues in Italy versus in the United States?
Annalisa Reale:
Thank you, Tracey. I believe that spending time for me as lawyer international and an employment attorney in the US was so helpful. Because now that I advise mainly US clients with operations in Europe and in Italy, I can know what they are in mind. The major difference I would say are, first of all, [inaudible 00:02:06] employment at-will that we do not know. It's so far from us. Employment will is a kind of dream for employers for Italian employers, from European employers.
Then, also, on the union side, we have many differences. Because in the US, unions, they need to fight in order to get recognized. While in Continental Europe, let's say, the right of the unions to be present at workplace is a right. It comes with a certain number of employees. I would say, very roughly, employment will rule, which we don't have and we dream apart partially. And then the union's environment is a bit different. This is what I learned.
Tracey Diamond:
That's so interesting. There are EU laws that are separate from individual country laws. You have to sort of know the EU laws and then also know the country laws when it comes to employment. Or is it only local Italian laws?
Annalisa Reale:
Good question. Actually, employment law, whatever is around of employment law or labor law is still all national. But there is a big footprint of European legislation all in some areas. However, any legislation at European level is mainly a framework. We call directives. Then any states needs to implement that European legislation level are here at local level.
The source is local. But pay attention, because we have so many areas now in which EU law is getting and putting a footing. And I would just mention here also in the realm of corporate responsibility. There are some new laws. And especially, in equality environment as well, which we don't have your tradition US and Anglo-Saxon tradition in equality law and DE&I. And this is a big chunk of European law. That is through European law, this is coming to us even to much countries like Italy, like Spain. Like race, we really owe. We have adept with European law, thanks to God, to bring here, the European standards, a bit more close to a higher level of protection for DE&I and equality law.
Tracey Diamond:
Interesting. I would think that there's probably some gray where you're not sure which law to apply. And that needs to be worked out. Would that be done through the courts?
Annalisa Reale:
Actually, no. It's quite clear what we apply. Let's say we have a pretty different situation from the US, which you have of course in the US you have federal laws. Then you have state laws. And we don't have such combination. I would rather say, Tracey, that we have a different area that is great. It can be what is in the statutes? And what is in the in the union side regulation coming from collective bargaining agreements. Which in Italy [inaudible 00:04:40] Italy, covers usually an industry. Not a company.
In the US, collective bargaining is mainly company-based. Here, it's industry-based. It's very wide. We have collective bargaining agreements covering all the banks or covering all pharmaceutical sectors. Or at national level. And sometimes this is actually the level that may overlap or may actually however interact. That is a statutory and collective bargaining level. It's a different dynamic which reflects actually the environment and the area here.
Tracey Diamond:
You have a number of clients in the fashion industry, which makes you even more interesting to talk about than ever. Tell us what it's like to represent clients in this industry.
Annalisa Reale:
Let's say that today you cannot see my jacket, which would be an example for you of what it means. Because it's fascinating environment. I just say this because we are lucky enough to work with the main, I would say, fashion brand in Italy because fashion is an industry. We have automotive. We have of course energy. And then we have fashion is a real industry. There's so many employees. There are big companies. Some of them now, despite the brands are Italian, but now the share owners, there are mainly – there is a polarization or mainly two big subject. That is a KKR and [inaudible 00:05:59].
Even the Italian brands, some of them are still Italian. But they do operate here but under different owners. And the good of this is, first of all, to get invited to – first of all, to buy something for them. This is why I was wearing my jacket today. That is a flower jacket.
Tracey Diamond:
You always have the best clothes whenever I see you.
Annalisa Reale:
But then the dynamic is interesting. If you look with the glasses of an attorney, we have some major issues now in the field. And one of this is supply chain, for instance. Because all this is very, very high quality. But is really that 100% made in Italy? Which is super top quality. So I would say that there are some areas overall, in which employment [inaudible 00:06:43] they work. There is supply chain. ECG also is very strong. In the fashion industry, there is a lot to do. But it's interesting the dynamic how this is changing. Because 20 years ago, the supply chain was all however based here in the territory. It was all Italian. Small families. Small companies cooperating to make a wonderful Valentino bag. While now, today, there are different components. And then this could be some company they are still like Valentino or maybe 100% some different. I would say that it's a fill for experimentation. But I do however prefer to work for fashion brands for whatever it can be. [inaudible 00:07:24] or whatever other interesting good clients, but less fascinating.
Tracey Diamond:
Evan, do you want to jump been here?
Evan Gibbs:
Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I think for this episode, just like as we usually do, we've got – we're using a TV show as sort of the jumping off point here for some other topics of discussion. And today we're going to use the show White Lotus. If you've seen the first or second season, they both open with sort of a mysterious death at a luxury resort hotel called The White Lotus. And then the season follows the exploits of the employees and the guests at the hotel in a who've done it fashion. Season two takes place at what looks like one of the most – probably the most beautiful hotels in the whole world, the San Dominico Palace, Four Seasons Hotel. And the Sicilian Resort Town of Taormina. Annalisa, have you ever been there? And what's it like there?
Annalisa Reale:
I would not actually say too much. But in a word, that's almost my house. I know. Really, we own a family house in Taormina. With my husband, we go there from many years. And I would say that San Dominico is such a fascinating hotel. It's hotel with a history. Because it was a monastery. It was a Monastery. So there were monks there. The rooms, they are quite small. But now, of course, they are luxurious rooms. And the view is fantastic. Because Taormina is on a peak. On a peak in Sicily. And then the sea is very blue. It doesn't surprise me that since when it's has been bought, the hotel by Four Seasons, now it's really a destination point for our American friends. And then White Lotus is just the right one. I'm eager. I love Wild Lotus, all these. I'm just in there. And the employment story there is very interesting.
Evan Gibbs:
Good. Well, we were happy. For us, we learned that one of the characters in season 2 is an employment attorney. Let's listen to our first clip.
[BEGIN CLIP]
Daphne:
So you do employment law? So interesting.
Harper:
Mm-hmm.
Daphne:
What is that exactly?
Harper:
We take on clients that are suing their employers for discrimination, sexual harassment, wrongful termination, stuff like that.
Daphne:
Amazing.
Harper:
What? What is that face?
Cameron:
No. No. No. Nothing. Just we've been dealing with a bunch of bogus claims lately. I mean, everyone has. And even when they have zero merit and they get thrown out in summary judgment, you still have to go through all the depos and the internal investigations. It's a total time suck. Not to mention, a huge waste of money. I mean, God.
Harper:
Well, they're not all bogus.
Cameron:
No. No. God. No. Fuck. Of course, they're not. Oh, no. Of course, they're. I'm sorry.
Harper:
No. No. No. It's fine.
Cameron:
Sorry.
Harper:
All good.
Daphne:
I bet you're really tough. I bet your clients are really happy to have you in their corner.
Cameron:
Yeah. God. We don't want to mess with you.
Ethan:
She's like the star of her firm. Wins every case.
Daphne:
Of course, you are.
[END CLIP]
Tracey Diamond:
Happy that she was an employment attorney. But not so happy that she was representing the employee side. And in the US, attorneys tend to pick a side. We don't usually. Although, there's some exceptions. We don't usually represent employees and employers. Usually, we represent only employees or represent only employers. Is that the way it is in Italy?
Annalisa Reale:
Very similar. Actually, especially in a business law firm, like the one I operate from 20 years and that we do represent, I would say 99.9% that we represent companies and employers. It may happen very seldom that we represent the managers. But very, very high managing directors. If you're not conflicted, it may ask you can you just fall in my incentive plan? Can you check my remuneration package? However, we would not represent them in litigation. I would say that it's perhaps a bit less rigid than the US. But then in practice, even you are on the employer side or you on the employee side, for myself [inaudible 00:11:16] In Italy, I am actually truly on the employer side.
Evan Gibbs:
Yeah. Same here.
Tracey Diamond:
It's hard to get that bias out. Right, Evan?
Evan Gibbs:
yeah. Yeah. That's absolutely right. And it's the same here in the US. We'll represent executives sometimes from different companies for contract negotiations. Some things like that if we got that relationship that's in place. But, yeah. Just like you, we're 99.9% on the employer side.
Tracey Diamond:
One of the exceptions I could think of to a certain extent is restrictive covenant work where we might represent. And even that's not so much representing the employee. Although, we will represent the employees in a restrictive covenant dispute more often than in a discrimination or a harassment suit where we would almost never do so. Or we would represent the plane of company versus the defendant company. Is that an exception for you in the world of non-competes?
Annalisa Reale:
I would say non-compete is an interesting area in which actually Europe is following with the US. But still, on the non-compete area, in Continental Europe, we still do a apply non-compete. And my clients, they're still asking for non-compete on 24 months and then a huge non-compete. And I say, "Come on. They'll be struck down sooner or later." But still, when we met [inaudible 00:12:26] in this conference a couple of weeks ago, we could actually understand that this is scenario which still principles different. Because we do have non-restricted covenants.
And if there are some criteria are complied with, especially in terms of remuneration, they can be enforced. While we understand the US, the trend is at least to narrow them. Then I know when the Federal Trade Commission Act, whatever this is. But it's too narrow.
So you want to ask me whether I do represent managers in this? I would say no. The legal area which we represent managers is rather remuneration. Remuneration can be quite complex, especially for private equity. We advise many private equity firms. Sometimes a manager would ask, we can see that there is a space there to have a very experienced actually employment attorneys. And we work with finance. And we work with tax people, with corporate people to build remuneration plans, which are [inaudible 00:13:20] to say most the time is from the other side. From private equity funds and finance and banks more than the other. But if there is a space, that's usually the space that we go also for managers.
Tracey Diamond:
Yeah. On the non-compete issue. And Annalisa is right. We presented together on this topic a couple of weeks ago. As you know, in the US, it's a very evolving area. We're at this moment in time waiting to see ultimately what happens with the FTC ban. That's supposed to go into effect in early September. And assuming that one doesn't make it through, which we all kind of think it won't, there's still evolving state laws that are really all over the place from outright bans to notice requirements, salary thresholds and having to narrow the language to make it enforceable to certain states where it's much more easily enforced. It's a very interesting area here in the US.
Evan Gibbs:
Yeah. And it also comes down to the particular judge that you're in front of too. You can have an agreement that looks like it complies with whatever state law is applicable. But a lot of judges, they don't want to put somebody out of work for two years, or for a year, for however long it is. I think in the US, they really are very tricky to enforce.
Annalisa Reale:
Yeah. This area, it's very interesting also from an international point of view. Because I recently represent a big US company that actually had a case, a non-compete case in Delaware. And so, as an expert, I made an affidavit. Because they wanted to know whether a cabinet that was executed under Italian law could actually be enforced also in the US. And then we actually realized there that the constitutional right of freedom to work anywhere, of course. And Italy has these three [inaudible 00:15:00] rules. You really need to have a coverage, like a proper remuneration in order to enforce it.
And this case is still pending. But if the case, hopefully, gets right, then I will be published anywhere. At that point, I would take to me [inaudible 00:15:16]. Let's see whether we win the case. [inaudible 00:15:18] US case in Delaware for [inaudible 00:15:21] manager or the company base here.
Tracey Diamond:
Very interesting. Because I always thought that [inaudible 00:15:26] of covenant is a sort of US concept for US employees that it wouldn't reach. I know the FTC ban anyway. The intention is that it doesn't reach outside the US. I'm not sure about state laws. Yeah.
Annalisa Reale:
This is the context of this can be also helpful for whoever will listen to this podcast. It's very common to get the restricted covenants in the context of RSU plan to stock plan. I give you shares. I give you RSU. I give – and then, however, you would not compete. And this is the point. Where you can put a non-compete there. [inaudible 00:15:57] with the shares. And the shares are not real money, right? The shares could be zero. It could be millions. This is why that was very nice, because US law and Italian law of non-compete, they were compared to see whether the judge, the US judge should apply some principles or not.
Tracey Diamond:
Oh, we'll wait to see what happens there. What about in the world of discrimination, harassment, retaliation? Here, the initial burden to get into court is fairly low. An employee just needs to make out a prima facie case. And because of that, we're finding that these cases really do clog up the courts. Is that the case in Italy as well? Is the standard similar?
Annalisa Reale:
Oh, that's an area which I would need to come face-to-face to talk to you about this. Because over my 25-year experience, I saw this discrimination cases. Let's say when I start and there were zero, even in big firms. Because discrimination is very much linked down to your culture, to the environment around you and to the perception. And when we started to practice law and then coming from an US experience, my sensitivity for discrimination cases were quite high. And I found that even a big employment law firm, the cases in court discrimination, they were one peer, two peers. And this is because of the regulatory framework, which actually was very poor until last year ago, some years ago.
And second, about really the culture. We always made an example, is that if there are two fellows in the same room in an office and the lady, one is the lady, and she comes within new haircut with a new mini skirt, new shoes. And then in Italy – and then nobody's saying anything, she would complain and she would say to [inaudible 00:17:38] why are looking at me? You're not my husband. You never know [inaudible 00:17:42]. While in the US, you will never do it, right? Because you would see –
Tracey Diamond:
Right.
Annalisa Reale:
So the point is where is the bar? The bar culturally is much higher here. To compliment a woman, with a lady and say how good you are today. Looking at her. Then the point is, of course, move a bit from there and then understand that what is not desired. And what is unsolicited cannot be perceived as nice. But still, with my experience today, I would tell you that we do have now legislation, of course, coming from European law. That is aspiring to US law. But still, the bar is much lower. It's not as 20 years ago.
We have a few discrimination cases. A few, especially on outright dismissal. Outright dismissal, I would then question you. How is the percentage of dismissal that you are in court disputes that you believe they are claiming as for outright discrimination cases? If you ask me, I would say that under 100 cases. Perhaps 10 or less than 10, the claimant would say, "Come on. A lot of dismissal for a discrimination case." But still, the ground discrimination is perceived to be quite narrow. While I understand – but I may be wrong. This is question for you. In the US, under 100 cases, Tracey, how many for you outright dismissal cases would be grounded on discrimination?
Tracey Diamond:
I would say, of a 100 cases here in the US, depending on the court, I would say probably 90 of them would be discrimination cases. Another 10 of them maybe would be non-competes unless there's something particularly hot going on in another world. And of those cases, it's almost impossible to get the case dismissed on a motion to dismiss early on. And a little bit more likely depending on the court to get it dismissed on summary judgment. But that's at the close of discovery. Everybody's already spent a lot of money. And I would say of those 90 cases, eight of them will have settled, or 89 of them will have settled before trial. Evan, what do you think? Are my statistics way off here?
Evan Gibbs:
No. I think that's right. I think the discrimination harassment cases may be an even bigger percentage though. I think you may have 97 or 98 cases out of 100.
Tracey Diamond:
I think I was being nice.
Evan Gibbs:
And then two are non-compete cases. Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah, there's a huge volume of the discrimination cases. A lot of times, employees use them almost as just a way to get a severance package. We've dealt with so many of them over the years. You get a little bit jaded. It's like in our first clip. The guy who was talking about he's seen a lot of sort of frivolous claims lately. And that's kind of how we feel. When I see these cases coming across my desk, it's usually pretty hard to really believe what's being said. Because there's so many bad ones that get filed that it's really – in my mind, it's really taken. And I think it's really done a discredit to a lot of the statutes. Because we see some that are just so silly. I mean, they're just really silly cases. And it's like I can't believe that – number one, I can't believe that some lawyer filed this case. And then you got a defendant and there's a cost to that. And so, it's really I think made companies, employers, and defense lawyers just very, very jaded when it comes to those types of cases.
Tracey Diamond:
Yeah. It's true. And it's sad. Because along the line somewhere, there is a case that may have merit. And it'll be hard to sort of see it for what it is because so many of them, mountains of them, are frivolous cases. And what we see is that the attorneys' fees really drive the case. Because if an employee gets all the way to trial, let's say, and wins but even gets $1 in damages, they're entitled to all of their attorneys' fees. It makes companies afraid to take the case all the way a trial for fear that they're going to wind up having to pay very large attorneys' fees provision.
Annalisa Reale:
Absolutely.
Tracey Diamond:
On that realm, our next clip, just bringing it back to White Lotus for a minute, an older guest flirts with a hotel worker as she shows him to his room. Let's take a listen to this one.
[BEGIN CLIP]
Bert:
Oh, I should tell you, both my parents were born in Sicily. Yeah, they came to the States as children. Yes, we are Sicilian just like you.
Isabella:
Although, I'm not from Sicily. I'm from Milan.
Bert:
Oh, you do have more of a Northern look. Beautiful hazel eyes. Wonderful smile.
Isabella:
You're very kind.
Bert:
You must be very popular.
Dominic:
All right, dad. Anyway. We're here because we're going to visit the town my grandmother's from. It's a little town, Testa dell'Acqua.
Isabella:
Yeah. That sounds very special.
Dominic:
Hopefully, we can find some people there who can speak English. Maybe help us track down some distant relatives. Because we definitely don't speak Italian.
Bert:
Oh, you should come, Isabella. You could be our translator. We need you.
Dominic:
Dad. Leave her alone. We'll take it from here.
Isabella:
Thank you. Can I show you how to close the curtains? There's a button over there.
Dominic:
That's okay. We'll figure it out.
Bert:
I'd like to know. Where is this button, Isabella?
Dominic:
Dad. I'm going to help you find it, okay? Thank you very, very much.
Isabella:
Thank you very much.
Bert:
Thank you. You're very lovely.
Isabella:
Thank you.
Bert:
They are lucky to have you working here. Be our translator!
[END CLIP]
Tracey Diamond:
In the US, an employer not only has a duty to protect their employees from their co-workers, and from managers, and supervisors. But, also, to protect employees from harassment by customers and clients. Is that the law in Italy as well?
Annalisa Reale:
Well, that's another tricky question. Tracey is the one with a tricky question. I knew she would be an excellent attorney as she is. I will say that actually, broadly, the employers, they have the right to protect the physical health and the mental health of the employee. And from such broad principle that is however in our civil code, this is a civil country. We have actually our main laws in the civil code. It's very broad so. It says that the employer must protect the mental and then the health of the employee. But how far this could go?
And then my impression is that [inaudible 00:23:55] law is a bit less in the US. Meaning that, of course, I need to protect my employee but to the extent I can do this according to bona fide principle. Meaning that I need to – as an employer, I need to monitor. I need all to prevent if ever unlawful contact against my employees. But at a certain point, if there's a customer or a client that is out whatever aggressive, I can tell I've done everything to prevent this. I had cameras of this, of that.
My impression is that this is a bit less. But however, health and safety at work and health is also perceived to be as a mental health. Prevent and trying to protect employees also from what could be a mental problem in the employment work is getting bigger and bigger here. Absolutely bigger and bigger. But still, not there to also include customer clients unless – and to the extent actually that the employer made whatever he could do to make the organization and the environment, the working environment, safe.
Tracey Diamond:
I would say that's probably similar concepts to what where we're coming from here in the US in terms of keeping employees safe not only from the folks that they work with every day, but the clients and the customers that may be acting in a way that could create a hostile work environment. Which kind of brings me to my next broader question, which is really about the show White Lotus and what it's trying – its themes in terms of it's focusing on the hospitality industry in both seasons. Hawaii in season 1. And then Italy in season 2. And in the employee challenges that they have in dealing with guests.
And US and in Italy, travel and tourism represent a nice chunk of the economy. It's about 3% of the US economy and about 10% of Italy's economy. Showing the importance of tourism to both countries. In your practice, are you seeing some of the issues that are described in White Lotus in terms of class concerns, privilege concerns, and just sort of general customer services challenges that the employees are facing and working in the hospitality industry?
Annalisa Reale:
Tracey, for sure, you touched a point. Because hospitality and whatever – tourism industry is very big in Italy. It's going to be more relevant. And we are very happy to see that after the COVID, there's a full recovery. And the full recovery, there are also so many people coming over from the US. Our hotel industry is going very well, hospitality.
And the matter is that there are not enough workers or qualified workers. Because the segment that we see has been growing better is the luxury. The luxury, five-star hotels and then whatever. And thanks to God, Italy is a small place but full of fantastic and luxury places. If you go to North of Italy, there is Portofino, and there is Venice, and then there is Milan, and then there's Florence.
I would say that since there are many also resorts, it's a quite a new way of getting tourists, these resorts. The main international hotel chains they bought. So Four Season. You were just mentioning Four Season in Taormina. Four Season, again, the most wonderful hotel. And this is [inaudible 00:27:02]. That is the [inaudible 00:27:05] in Florence. Or there are some other chains like Belmont. I mean, there are many international. I will start in the luxury. They are buying [inaudible 00:27:12].
In terms of, of course, the real estate, which is not less interesting today, there is a big market. But for the hotel industry, there is a big market also for employees. And the point is that employees make the difference. If you go for experience to luxury hotel, luxury resort, you want that.
We see that in the hotel industry. There is a challenge. And the challenge is the salaries. Because we didn't have a salary rise. We had a rise in the tariffs and the fees. Hotels, luxury hotels, they incredibly raised the fees. I would say they even double before COVID. But there was no salary raise. I would say that in big chains, in the retention and attraction talents in that industry is done by other means. Not just the salary. But the big brands, also hotel and luxury, that can offer more training. And they can offer opportunities in careers.
Then the point that you raised about the kind of protection of employees in the industry. Yes, it is there. But I don't see that as a main point of attention in the area. What I see is that is really that are big companies and international companies, they are really making that – find it difficult to find the right people, find the right environment. And then this makes the difference whether your hotel and your hospitality charge rate is going high, or is going medium, or is doing low.
The real challenge is also with the collective bargaining, that is a part of our culture, is, first of all, to get the flexibility in order to get flexibility in hospitality. And I would say this is so and so. And then to introduce even the hotel industry salary structures, remuneration packages, incentives, which were unknown in the past.
We were called in the past to make incentive plans in finance, in private equity, in banking. But not actually in hotel industry. At least not just for big area people. And do this now. We do retention plans. And sometimes we offer training programs to the people. In exchange, we ask them to be with the company with – what do we call? Stability covenant. I pay you this training in this big important hospitality school. And then you stay with me two years.
Tracey Diamond:
We have something like that too. Yeah.
Annalisa Reale:
Well, in the past I saw that for Italian pilots. We were offering to pay them. They pay them to take the pilot. And then they would stay with us. We saw that in big consultancy firms. All the big consultancy firms were saying, "We'll we pay your MBA in States." Right? Pay MBA in the States right and then you stay with us two years.
But in hotel industry, this is very recent. But this is because there's a shortage of people in the high world, high segment. I would say this is more hot than not. I don't see so many claims for distress by customers or by clients. But rather employers and hotels looking for people they believe that may sometimes not have the right pay. This is challenging.
Tracey Diamond:
I would say that that's probably similar to what we're seeing here. Although, it's getting more pressed in Europe in general. Sort of this backlash amongst the countries that are getting such an influx of tourism where people who live in those countries are not happy to have to deal with the tourists. We just saw the water guns in Barcelona. Yeah, I don't know where that's going to go. Do you think that, from your perspective, is Italy kind of getting to the point where enough is enough and we need to limit the number of tourists that are coming in? Or there's still this sort of welcoming? We recognize this is a big part of our economy. And we want our tourists to come in and be happy.
Annalisa Reale:
For sure, tourists are always very, very welcome. The real point is the segment of tourist. Because what we do have now, but this is a phenomenon anywhere, is the change of market, is that you also have tourists, a portion of it, that is not – is not luxury. It's not high-level. And it's what we call just bites. You come to Venice for a day. You take a sandwich and you take an ice cream. And then you get into the city. You get millions of people in the city. And then night, you go back. Or there is the Airbnb industry now, which sometime tourists they chose to go to some different structures. Not in hotels.
And we had interesting laws that try to limit the one-night stay in Airbnb in Florence. But just stay two months. And then that's gone. While I understands, where in Paris, it's a big issue. And the city of Paris, the mayor, they made a statute, an order, which say that at least you should have three days with Airbnb structures. And this is changing actually. This is changing the market. And this is what perhaps you may refer to, Tracey, and I try to understand. And I share this.
We are actually thinking, for instance, in Venice to put a ticket in order to discourage what is to protect the center, to protect art, to protect the environment. To try to discourage what is actually the concentration of people one day and then leave the city in not ideal conditions. This would not actually be something that the people like tourists. But which kind of tourist? Is that also here in ECG view? What can be acceptable? What is sustainable? Sustainable tourist, for sure, is a keyword.
Tracey Diamond:
Yeah. And it's very complicated with lots of different points of view. But, certainly, a topic that I think we're going to see more and more of as time goes on with concerns about sustainability rising to the forefront. Well, listen, Annalisa, we really appreciate your time today. It was so much fun having you on our podcast.
Thank you to our listeners for listening in. And please check out our blog, hiringtofiring.law. And listen to our other podcast episodes. You can get them wherever you get your podcasts. And shoot us an email. Give us some ideas on subtopics, and TV shows, and movies. Thanks so much for listening.
Annalisa Reale:
Thank you. It was really fun. Good day from Milan. Ciao.
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